Curse

Fay Vert · Dec 04, 2008, 10:20 PM // 22:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Meth

at least when I insult a post I consistently try to spell words correctly, lest I make a greater fool of myself.

lol, you are reduced to spotting spelling mistakes because that's all you have left.

As I said, stop sucking so bad.

Try playing a ranger for a change, you might like it, you may even learn something about the game.

The Meth · Dec 04, 2008, 10:36 PM // 22:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fay Vert

lol, you are reduced to spotting spelling mistakes because that's all you have left.

As I said, stop sucking so bad.

Try playing a ranger for a change, you might like it, you may even learn something about the game.

Well, all you seem to have had was 'lul you suck' (and that is still all you have). I can't very well argue with someone who just puts out an opinion instead of trying to advance a reason why Dshot would be helpful. Seeing how I have asked the good supporters of Dshot to name me a skill worth interrupting, and you have yet to find one, it seems you have nothing left. My main is a ranger btw, and I have probably done more with it then you have with yours.

Teutonic Paladin · Dec 04, 2008, 10:43 PM // 22:43

DShot is very good for removing key threats, but obviously in PvE it's going to be better to just remove every threat with AoE Defense (Aegis/Ward/Enfeebling). However, I can't think of a single common ranger bar that isn't chock full of optional slots that you couldn't bring DShot in. Optimally, you don't bring rangers, but PvE doesn't necessarily require optimal builds.

People use DShot because it is a good defensive skill, and it is fun to shout out the random shit you manage to hit by luck. It'll never be Great in PvE, but it is the best that rangers have for a generic optional skill.

Also, DShot is a 1/4 second cast (seriously).

upier · Dec 04, 2008, 10:53 PM // 22:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Meth

I agree that the best build is almost definitely an SY spam build (and that goes for just about every physical class). But its rather, umm... unhealthy to end every discussion of builds with "lulz its not as good as SY". The point that should be made is that not only does SY help the group more then interrupting will ever accomplish, but so does normal things like Aegis, Ward against Melee, and Enfeebling blood. Passive AoE/party wide defenses are almost always going to be better then single target active defenses in PvE, especially with the half cast time crap.

Aye.
It just didn't hit me to mention them since SY! is going to be the best option that the ranger can run out of those listed skills. Well, next to Enfeebling - but since heroes don't have access to PvE-only skills - you might as well let a hero run that and you run around with SY!.

Fay Vert · Dec 04, 2008, 10:57 PM // 22:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teutonic Paladin

Also, DShot is a 1/4 second cast (seriously).

I thought everyone knew that, though there does appear to be one poster in this thread that thinks it's 0.5 sec

Bobby2 · Dec 05, 2008, 03:36 AM // 03:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teutonic Paladin

However, I can't think of a single common ranger bar that isn't chock full of optional slots that you couldn't bring DShot in.

Hiya voice of reason, nice post. Disagree with you here though.

The Meth · Dec 05, 2008, 04:45 AM // 04:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fay Vert

I thought everyone knew that, though there does appear to be one poster in this thread that thinks it's 0.5 sec

Where did anyone say distracting shot was 1/2 second, tell me? You cannot reliably interrupt .5 second casts with distracting. You just can't. You have lag, flight time, and basic human reaction speed to deal with. Those can't all happen in the other .25 seconds.

Show me yourself hitting 10 .5 second casts in a row and I will bow at your feet and hail you as the greatest ranger of the game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teutonic Paladin

However, I can't think of a single common ranger bar that isn't chock full of optional slots that you couldn't bring DShot in.

Gotta disagree with this too. Already posted are lists of the fun things rangers can bring. There may be a bunch of flexible slots, but there are a ton of other things you want to put in before Dshot.

Teutonic Paladin · Dec 05, 2008, 03:57 PM // 15:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Meth

Where did anyone say distracting shot was 1/2 second, tell me? You cannot reliably interrupt .5 second casts with distracting. You just can't. You have lag, flight time, and basic human reaction speed to deal with. Those can't all happen in the other .25 seconds.

Show me yourself hitting 10 .5 second casts in a row and I will bow at your feet and hail you as the greatest ranger of the game.

Gotta disagree with this too. Already posted are lists of the fun things rangers can bring. There may be a bunch of flexible slots, but there are a ton of other things you want to put in before Dshot.

You're probably right on the optional thing, I don't play Ranger in PvE so I'm not exactly an expert when it comes to ranger builds.

Quote:

you can't interrupt .5s cast skills with a ranger.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but you really did say that it was impossible, and the only reason that it could be impossible is if you believed that it was a .5 cast. I play with an average of 70 ping, I'm sure most great rangers are much much better. That leaves you with .18 seconds to react. Average human reaction time is 160-200 (http://biae.clemson.edu/bpc/bp/Lab/1...0of%20Stimulus), but this is obviously going to be much faster on competitive GvG players or someone who's been playing ranger for awhile. Point blank flight time with a Recurve is practically zero. This is compounded greatly by the difficulty of recognition, but this is just a matter of practice and finding solid visual cues (for DA it's a sun bursting out of the caster's chest).

I can't interrupt 10 .5 skills in a row, I'm not consistent enough, but it certainly is not the herculean feat you think it is. I'm sure you could find a large number of rangers who're up to the challenge.

The Meth · Dec 05, 2008, 09:16 PM // 21:16

At point blank range with a recurve? How many times does that happen? At any reasonable range you are going to have at least a .1 second flight time. Furthermore a .15 second reaction time is a good reaction time when you are reacting to ANY event. That would be akin to interrupting any skill an enemy casts, but if you take time to read the skill and decide whether its worth casting your reaction time is at least in the .2-.25 range. Notice in the page you linked to the average reaction time for simple reaction was .22 seconds, but the average for first recognizing and reacting to a certain stimuli is .384. Unless you want the hypothetical ranger to interrupt every skill they see, they are going to take that extra time (and thats why heroes don't make good interrupters, they waste it on every skill an enemy uses). Remember I am talking about a cold interruption, with no ability to predict or know when an enemy will start a spell or whether a spell is the right one. That is very, very hard to do consistently. I won't say impossible, but if you can you will be pretty much the best interrupter in the game. Since I'm fairly sure you aren't, how about I say its impossible for you?

When people are interrupting .5 second casts its mostly by prediction, not by reaction. Great rangers can sometime even hit .25 cast skills in PvP, its because they know when certain spells are about to be cast. If the human brain has foresight into when an event is to occur they can actually react in something on the order of .01 or less seconds. Unfortunately, predicting doesn't work as well in PvE, because caster's will wand randomly and their skills are generally cast randomly instead of due to specific occurances. Like I said, anyone with half a brain can interrupt the SF ele's .5s casts, its because they spam it. Unfortunately you can't predict a monk's WoH in PvE, because its going to be cast fairly randomly in the battle. Much better to either bring damage or bring a shutdown that doesn't rely on the ranger being the best interrupter in the game.

valence · Dec 06, 2008, 05:27 AM // 05:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teutonic Paladin

I play with an average of 70 ping

My reaction time is 0.12 or something? i did that sheepy test someone pointed out on this forum and scored quite good. That said those numbers only count for twitching an interrupt (and meth, that happens a lot more then you are trying to say). The problem is you can foil a twitch by simply casting a 1/4th, maybe it doesn't matter in PvE but twitching often doesn't give you key skills unless you are sure it's comming.

About the ping. Me and basically lots of other people have a ping of about 200/300 on my closest locating server, pretty shit. So yes with 70 ping i might be able to get a 0.5 (you still have a small amount of flight time even if you hug a person) but it will be really difficult, tbh I think it's out of the question.

This discussion is leading to an end, for PvE dshot is not the best skill to have. Still, i'll never leave it at home (for 10 min tops with a boring pewpew thing ^^)

snaek · Dec 06, 2008, 05:52 AM // 05:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by teutonic paladin

Sorry to burst your bubble, but you really did say that it was impossible, and the only reason that it could be impossible is if you believed that it was a .5 cast. I play with an average of 70 ping, I'm sure most great rangers are much much better. That leaves you with .18 seconds to react.

u forgot flight time
which, depending on ur distance will remove additional 0-0.50 seconds from the time allowed for reaction

so realistically, on the average occasion
u'll be given ~0.05 seconds to react

Quote:

Originally Posted by the meth

Unfortunately, predicting doesn't work as well in PvE, because caster's will wand randomly and their skills are generally cast randomly instead of due to specific occurances.

i thought monster ai was very predictable?

The Meth · Dec 06, 2008, 07:38 AM // 07:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by snaek

i thought monster ai was very predictable?

In some cases.

As mentioned before, against SF spammers all the do is use 1 or 2 skills. That's predictable. They don't really move around, they don't wand, they just cast those skills until dead.

Monks on the other hand, they might use their WoH as soon as someone is hurt. The might use their orison of healing. They might decide to wand. They might use their whatever their other useless skill is. They are reacting to their own team's health(versus the offense which is just spamming their offensive skills), and you never know how they are going to do things next. Everyone who has ever run a monk hero knows that the AI selects a prot or heal skill randomly from whatever that have equipped, as evidenced by the infamous prot spirit spam they like to do on minions under degen.

It's definitely possible to score _some_ .5s interrupts in HM, you can be fairly sure when casters are going to cast since they generally have a certain rhythm, but you often have no idea what skill is going to be cast next. You don't have time to actually react to what skill was cast, only to predict, and prediction can't tell you which skill is coming next. Hope you don't Dshot their wand attack.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teutonic Paladin

I can't interrupt 10 .5 skills in a row, I'm not consistent enough

Well, if you can't interrupt .5s skills consistently then Dshot is definitely not a good skill for you. It may be for this mythical ranger composed entirely of 100% awesome, but then for the other 99.999% of the guild wars player base Dshot is mostly useless.

Amy Awien · Dec 06, 2008, 10:14 AM // 10:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Meth

Well, if you can't interrupt .5s skills consistently then Dshot is definitely not a good skill for you.

Just the oppostie, nobody is able to interrupt 100%, and trying to hit < 1 sec casts 10 times in a row means you'll miss some. D-Dhot ensures that when you do hit the skill it will be out of the fight so you do not need to hit it multiple times with S-Shot. That should be obvious.

Bobby2 · Dec 06, 2008, 03:31 PM // 15:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

Just the oppostie, nobody is able to interrupt 100%, and trying to hit < 1 sec casts 10 times in a row means you'll miss some. D-Dhot ensures that when you do hit the skill it will be out of the fight

Interrupts are used on priority targets.
Priority targets tend to die really quickly.
They will not live to see DShot's recharge, whether you nail it or not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

so you do not need to hit it multiple times with S-Shot. That should be obvious.

With the exception of über dungeon bosses I can't imagine having to Savage the same target twice. Sure your team got enough Domage?

Div · Dec 06, 2008, 09:28 PM // 21:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Meth

Well, if you can't interrupt .5s skills consistently then Dshot is definitely not a good skill for you. It may be for this mythical ranger composed entirely of 100% awesome, but then for the other 99.999% of the guild wars player base Dshot is mostly useless.

I have played with and against some of the best interrupters and fastest twitchers in the game. It's physically impossible to twitch interrupt .5s skills on a ranger because of arrow flight time. A mesmer with a typical ping of 150-200 and some fast casting will require a response time of around 100-150ms, which is way faster than most people's responses in terms of accuracy (considering it generally takes ~200ms just to process the visual stimuli).

Amy Awien · Dec 06, 2008, 10:46 PM // 22:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

Interrupts are used on priority targets.

Interrupts are for priority skills, not targets.

Quote:

Priority targets tend to die really quickly.
They will not live to see DShot's recharge, whether you nail it or not.

Me thinks it was Meth who's in need of interrupting stuff 10 times in a row, which suggests he can't get your priority targets down quick enough, with your approach at least.

But you're wrong, there's more then one type of target, there are targets you'd want to take down first, and targets that you'd only need to be rendered harmless and they don't necessarily overlap. If you pick targets wisely, you'll kill faster.

Quote:

Sure your team got enough Domage?

Yes, but you're confused, it was The Meth who's needing to interrupt 10 casts in a row.

The Meth · Dec 06, 2008, 10:52 PM // 22:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

Just the oppostie, nobody is able to interrupt 100%, and trying to hit < 1 sec casts 10 times in a row means you'll miss some. D-Dhot ensures that when you do hit the skill it will be out of the fight so you do not need to hit it multiple times with S-Shot. That should be obvious.

So, lets say at best you can make 50% of interrupts on .5s skills (very conservative). Again, you are just going by prediction, not reaction, so you dont have time to decide which skill to interrupt. That means on an average enemy with 6 skills you will have a 1/6 chance of interrupting a good one (and again this is fairly conservative, most enemies don't even have ONE skill worth interrupting). So now we have distracting shot able to interrupt an important skill 1 out of every 12 times, or about an 8% chance. It's like an Ebon vanguard sniper support clone, except even less chance of working and instead of killing them you have mildly hampered them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

Interrupts are for priority skills, not targets.

Except that outside of Aegis the only skills worth interrupting are .5 cast or less, meaning you don't have time to react to their casts.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

Me thinks it was Meth who's in need of interrupting stuff 10 times in a row, which suggests he can't get your priority targets down quick enough, with your approach at least.

Obviously you wouldn't need to use dshot 10x a battle. You are just trying to twist words now. The point was that anyone who claimed to be able to Dshot .5s spells should be able to show me that kind of consistency.

Bobby2 · Dec 07, 2008, 04:29 AM // 04:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

Interrupts are for priority skills, not targets.

Priority skills are used by priority targets. What exactly are you trying to say?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

Me thinks it was Meth who's in need of interrupting stuff 10 times in a row, which suggests he can't get your priority targets down quick enough, with your approach at least.

...

Yes, but you're confused, it was The Meth who's needing to interrupt 10 casts in a row.

I'm pretty sure this was a hypothetical question. Get real.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

But you're wrong, there's more then one type of target, there are targets you'd want to take down first, and targets that you'd only need to be rendered harmless and they don't necessarily overlap. If you pick targets wisely, you'll kill faster.

This qualifies as a 'No' to the question I asked you earlier

Quote:

Sure your team got enough Domage?

Div · Dec 07, 2008, 09:09 AM // 09:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Meth

So, lets say at best you can make 50% of interrupts on .5s skills (very conservative). Again, you are just going by prediction, not reaction, so you dont have time to decide which skill to interrupt. That means on an average enemy with 6 skills you will have a 1/6 chance of interrupting a good one (and again this is fairly conservative, most enemies don't even have ONE skill worth interrupting). So now we have distracting shot able to interrupt an important skill 1 out of every 12 times, or about an 8% chance. It's like an Ebon vanguard sniper support clone, except even less chance of working and instead of killing them you have mildly hampered them.

Except that outside of Aegis the only skills worth interrupting are .5 cast or less, meaning you don't have time to react to their casts.

Obviously you wouldn't need to use dshot 10x a battle. You are just trying to twist words now. The point was that anyone who claimed to be able to Dshot .5s spells should be able to show me that kind of consistency.

While this is correct in most cases (though there are still other skills you may want to get that are easier to dshot than .5s casts), the main question is "what's better?"

In a typical barrage bar, you'll be using barrage for main damage, and putting another damage skill in there seems a little silly, since barrage recharges so quickly and is probably more effective than whatever other attack you have. Same goes with incendiary arrows.

In a BHA bar, you already have a slot for an attack, and do you really need another attack (or better yet, do you have energy to power that additional attack)?

I can understand possibly putting in a PvE skill (Finish him, ymlad, wards) for more utility, but again, you're limited by your energy, and I'd have to argue that the utility of dshot is greater than whatever else you can replace it with.

While dshot isn't exactly ideal in HM because of fast cast times, there really isn't anything better that you can power to put in there.

Amy Awien · Dec 07, 2008, 11:19 AM // 11:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Meth

The point was that anyone who claimed to be able to Dshot .5s spells should be able to show me that kind of consistency.

No, your point was that if one can't interrupt 10 .5 sec casts in a row then D-Shot wasn't the skill for them.

Suppose there's a 80% chance to hit the skill. When you are required to hit it twice in a row, the chance of doing so successfully is reduced to 64%, with four times it's 41% and at ten times it's down to 11%. D-Shot removes the need to interrupt multiple times which gives it a better chance of success and that makes it the better choice. Only the mythical ranger who can interrupt with a 100% success rate does not benefit from D-Shot.

So, your statement was wrong. In a situation where you were required to interrupt a skill multiple times in a row D-Shot's disabling effect makes it the superior choice.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

Priority skills are used by priority targets. What exactly are you trying to say?

Something that apparently is a little hard to grasp.

It's this 'priority skill' that determines if a target is 'priority target' and once this priority skill is disabled the critter that carries it is no longer are priority target allowing your team to focus firepower on another target. This allows you to kill faster and more smoothly.

Quote:

I'm pretty sure this was a hypothetical question. Get real.

You seem pretty confused as to what is hypothetical and what is real.